यहाँ कोई शंका करता है कि शुभोपयोगियों के भी, किसी समय शुद्धोपयोगरूप भावना दिखाई देती है, शुद्धोपयोगियों के भी, किसी समय शुभोपयोग भावना देखी जाती है, श्रावकों के भी सामायिक आदि के समय शुद्ध भावना देखी जाती है; तब उनका विशेष भेद कैसे ज्ञात होता है ? आचार्य उसका समाधान करते हुये कहते हैं - आपका कहना उचित है; परन्तु जो अधिकतर शुभोपयोग रूप आचरण करते हैं, वे यद्यपि किसी समय शुद्धोपयोगरूप भावना करते हैं, तो भी शुभोपयोगी ही कहलाते हैं। तथा जो शुद्धोपयोगी हैं, वे भी किसी समय शुभोपयोगरूप वर्तते हैं, तो भी शुद्धोपयोगी ही हैं। दोनों रूप प्रवृत्ति होने पर भी ऐसा क्यों है ? बहुपद की-बहुलता की प्रधानता होने के कारण, आम्रवन-नीमवन आदि के समान¹, दोनों रूप प्रवृत्ति होने पर भी, अधिकता की अपेक्षा अन्तर है ॥ २८७ ॥
¹ आम के बगीचे में एक-दो नीम के वृक्ष होने पर भी, आम के वृक्षों की बहुलता के कारण, आम का ही बगीचा कहलाता है.
As far as the intent of this reference is concerned, Acharya is saying that it is quite obvious to say that shuddhopayog starts from 7th gunasthaan onwards. For, the shuddhopayog in lower stages is not that frequent as it is in the higher ones. But this does not imply that there is complete absence of shuddhopayog in lower stages (4th and 5th, to be precise).
First of all, I would like to tell you that I am not a Vidvan or Pandit, and I haven’t read even a single Granth, so pardon me if you find my questions irritating.
Q.1 In the gatha 13 of pravachansaar, Acharya shri said that there is shuddhopyog in अभाव ऑफ़ असाता वेदनी। Can you please tell me in which gunstaan there is abaav of asata vedni?
Q.2 In the other thread, there is usage of a word, आत्मानुभव, Can you tell me what do it mean?
I may be wrong, but as per my thinking , Charitra is not possible in 4th gunstaan. The reason I am thinking like this is that, if Charitra was there in 4th gunstaan, then how can a 4th gunstaani jeev go to 1st, 2nd or 3rd gunstaan? There should be a reason why a samyak drishti jeev goes to lower gunstaans.
I again may be wrong, but I even think there “can” be absense of Samyak Gyaan too in some cases. Like if take the examples of “Narkis”, as per my knowledge they get samyak darshan because of “Vedna”. So, I think they don’t have Samyak Gyan.
Moreover, Ratnatray consists of Samyak Darshan, Samyak Gyan and Samyak Charitra. There should be a specific reason to put them as 3 different entities. If there was always Samyak Gyan and Samyak Darshan together, Acharyas may have combined the first 2 and created them as a single entity.
Nothing personal dear, I don’t know about others, but this is causing some problem particularly to me. We usually motivate people to ask questions on matters they get stuck during their regular swadhyay. But as i am following your writing, I am very happy about your interest for charcha, but sometimes relying on the self thinking which is not based on Aagam becomes problematic. We cannot move forward without the light of Aagam.
Yes the forum is one of the best means to do charcha in written form but it should be backed by personal swadhyay of granths. Self studying the granths is the most appropriate way and forum, charcha with others and even pravachan are always as the support structure of our swadhyay. The other ways should not be made the primary form of swadhyay. Though for some people, starting with the original granths may not be recommended because that requires knowledge of basic concepts, but as you have some very good knowledge as well as very good interest in swadhyay, i would ask you to do self swadhyay of complete granths.
I think the prime motive of forum is that people start/increase their maine swadhyay, but the sad reality in many cases in that they just stop after giving some time to these online platform.
These (and some others in other threads) kind of views will definitely not arise in the light of Aagam. Many questions will automatically get solved. I hope that you will understand my intent for this writeup.
I never said what I said is correct, I always say, “I may be wrong” when I say anything with my own thinking.
Yes, I do believe that I should prioritize reading and learning from Agams.
Yes, I understand your concern and there is no need to delete this post.
The thing is there is no Keval Gyani at present time. Even different Vidwaans or Pandits incur different meanings of the same text. That’s why different panths or sects of Jainism are there. I am not saying that because of this we should stop reading agams.
Now coming to the main topic of Shuddopyog in 4th gunstaan,
I think you haven’t seen my last post in the thread in which this topic arose.
In the verse 13, the adjectives used are for ‘bliss’ (सुख) and not for शुद्धोपयोग… Thus it is nowhere implied that शुद्धोपयोग is the resulting effect of destruction of असाता वेदनीय. What is implied is that सुख is without any obstructions (बाधा).
आत्मानुभव and शुद्धोपयोग are more or less synonymous.
चारित्र begins at 4th गुणस्थान and finds it culmination in the 12th. There is no fruition of any type of चारित्रमोहनीय कर्म in the 11th also but that is of little significance as it is a stage of उपशम श्रेणी and not of क्षपक श्रेणी.
An oft-cited reference for showing the presence of चारित्र in 4th गुणस्थान -
चारित्र दो प्रकार का है - सम्यक्त्वाचरण और संयमाचारण । सम्यक्त्वाचरण चारित्र सभी सम्यग्दृष्टियों को होता है । वह शंकादि आठ मल के त्याग रूप है ।
It is possible for a सम्यग्दृष्टि to go back to मिथ्यात्व if the सम्यक्त्व is either औपशमिक or क्षायोपशमिक. A क्षायिक सम्यग्दृष्टि will never go back to मिथ्यात्व.
Yes, true. However, it is not possible to have any one of them in exclusion of the other two. It is either the case that all three are present or else all are absent. These three are different modifications of three distinct attributes (श्रद्धा, ज्ञान and चारित्र). It can be said that they are conceptually distinguishable but existentially inseparable.
¹ ब्र. सुजाता ताई जी, बाहुबली-कुम्भोज had shared this reference during a recently concluded conference at Karanja. The original Sanskrit goes as follows:
Linking another post having a similar kind of discussion. Any justifications for these rules?
On a side note, “चतुर्थ गुणस्थान में शुद्धोपयोग” is a very sensitive topic being the first step of मोक्षमार्ग and directly related to the सुख-दुःख (प्रयोजनभूत).
(Let’s assume, for a minute, it’s a never-ending debate (happening since last +50 years) and we are still in संशय in providing a concrete logic). There is a little / no harm in accepting - “चतुर्थ गुणस्थान में शुद्धोपयोग संभव हैं” but there’s a huge loss in not accepting it. Let’s do a simple Math:
मिथ्यादृष्टि (who accepts the fact & it’s not true).
The person will try to attain आत्मानुभव being in अव्रती दशा but as we are assuming it’s not true, s/he will not be able to achieve anything… परंतु यह प्रवृति शुभोपयोग रूप होने से 12th स्वर्ग पर्यन्त पद को प्राप्त कर सकता हैं। कार्य सिद्धि तो नहीं हुई परन्तु कुछ बिगाड़ नहीं हैं।
मिथ्यादृष्टि (who don’t accept the fact and it’s true).
Not believing the fact will not create enough motivation to even think in the direction to attain आत्मानुभव / शुद्धोपयोग / आत्मलीनता / you name it - … सो मोक्षमार्ग दुर्लभ हो जाने से बड़ा बिगाड़ हैं।
I’m not trying to be biased here but Pt. Todarmalji has a really nice contribution in describing the different state of मिथ्या thoughts on a very practical level. We should read his writings (especially रहस्य पूर्ण चिट्ठी) at least once keeping aside our previous beliefs.
Really great to see we have such an awesome place to discuss important stuff (प्रयोजनभूत तत्त्व) without being available in-person, quickly and also not bound to time. Centuries back, the pain for not having such luxury is clearly visible below
@jinesh Thank you for answering all my questions. The 2 question that were hidden are, “When Narkis attain Samyak Darshan, from where they attain Samyak Gyaan?” and “How they have Samyak Charitra?” If possible, please try to answer them too. Though I know I have really taken too much time of yours.
@Sowmay First I would like to thank you for trying to clear my doubt. I would also like to thank others too.
I don’t know why you used this Dhaal of Chahdhala, because there is no usage of word, “Shuddhopyog or Atmanubhuti”.
First I would like to point out that if it’s not true, you cannot call it a “Fact”. You can call it as a “concept”. I know you did it unintentionally.
By applying simple P&C, there can be 2 more cases here
3. Samyakva (who accepts the concept and it is true): If this case is true, those who are saying it is not there in 4th gunstaan will be wrong. According to the concept that Samyak Darshan, Gyaan and Charitya are all together. Those who deny of “Shuddhopyog in 4th gunstaan will remain without Samyak Darshan”. So, it is a very huge loss.
4. Samyaktva(who rejects the concept and it is false): In this case, those who say it is there in 4th gunstaan will be wrong, Again, according to the concept that Samyak Darshan, Gyaan and Charitya are all together. Those who accept the concept of “Shuddhopyog in 4th gunstaan will remain without Samyak Darshan”. So, it is a very huge loss too.
So, in both the 3rd and 4th case, people will remain away from the Samyak darshan, according to the concept that Samyak Darshan, Gyaan and Charitya are all together. Though I am still not sure of the concept.
Moreover, the aim should be to get Samyak Darshan and not to get 12th swarg, as Samyak Drishti is one who wants liberation and not any Swarg or Chakravarti Pad.
Even I would like to read Rhasya purn chitti, I searched on youtube, there I got videos of Pt. Bharril ji, which are more than 1 hr. And there are many parts too, each of which is more than 1 hr. So, if possible, please do provide me the link to that which in brief.
The credit goes to you and your team only.
Right now, I am neither accepting the concept nor rejecting it. I would be exploring more and then try to think on it. I am also going to ask Pt. Bainada ji, what is the meaning of gatha 287 of Pravachanasaar. I will not ask him if there is Shuddhopyog in 4th gunstaan or not, as we all know what he will answer. I even tried his number atleast 3 times on different days, unfortunately his phone was switched off all the times.
I think the opposite will be more beneficial. The person will try to attain आत्मानुभव being in Apramatta Samyata(7th gunstaan). Some people may not be believing in the existence of true muni(following 28 mool gun perfectly) in present time but, I think they would believe there will be true muni in future, as it is written in Jinvaani that there will true Muni till the end of 5th kaal. Also the concept of Kalki and Upkalki is there.
If we combine both the cases, Shuddhopyog starting from 4th gunstaan and Shuddhopyog starting in 7th gunstaan, the true Muni in 7th gunstaan will "Certainly" be having Shuddhopyog.
Even if the person is female or not capable of becoming muni, the person should aim to get liberation for getting Samyak Darshan, आत्मानुभव should not be the main aim.