Followers of Swami ji

[Abhay]

I also say that Arihant has seen everything what we will do. But, he has just SEEN and not made our future. We are karta of our own actions. Kram baddha paryay takes away our independence.

[Abhay]

Which chapter of Moksh marg prakashak ?

[Rushi]

You are correct, we are karta of our own actions. We are ‘akarta’ for any other external elements that includes our body, family, house, money, society etc. Kram baddha paryay explains vastu swaroop. But I can understand the concern that it may feels like everything is predestined and that it takes away independence, but more you study Jain concepts more it makes sense and helps in our salvation.

[Rushi]

I referenced MMP for bhaav and parinaam and what is in our control, for that I think reference is on page 260. I do not have copy with me right now to pinpoint the page.

[Rushi]

Also I think Kanji Swamiji is very much misunderstood, as long as we get references from Granths written by Acharyas, we can follow. Once we understand Acharyadev Kundakunda 5 granths, Tatvartha Sutra, RatnaKarand Shravakachar, MMP, Chahadhala, we can clearly understand what Swaniji is saying.

[Abhay]

I could not find. May be different edition hence pages may have changed. Better, you tell chapter name, when you have book, I will read full chapter.

When bhaav and parinam are in our hands, then paryay cannot be fixed from above. We have our control.

[Sulabh]

Please try to have discussion on the relevant thread.

[Rushi]

Agree, discussion has spiralled into Krambadhaparyay.

[Rushi]

Yes you are correct it is not fixed for us, but Kevali Bhagwan will know what it will be. We do have full control on it. Agreed.

[Abhay]

Watch this video of Kanji swami from 5:10 to 6:57 minutes. He says about Kram baddh paryay and all fixed paryay in this 1.5 minute video

[https://youtu.be/KH2LRqbK2Qo]

[Sulabh]

Specially for you @Abhay.
Many people here can provide ample examples from Aagam, to give you a clear picture regarding krambaddha paryay and can also make you understand the fixation of paryay (using syadvad, as has already been tried in the thread), but nothing will work better than you yourself studying and trying to understand the concept through thorough reading. Discussion is always open, but you need to have clear understanding of the purva-paksha before making a blanket judgement on it.
I again request you to study this topic nicely.
Please look upon the reading material provided in the given answer-

Karma & Krambaddhparyay

A thorough reading is a must before giving a judgemental view about a topic/person/belief. Only after that we are capable of efficient discussion, and that too in the light of Aagam. In the absence of thorough reading, we fail to have a holistic understanding of the purva paksha and the criticism begins without that. And i think that’s not the right way of debating, neither on forum nor anywhere else. For that very purpose, try to read these small books- Krambaddha paryay By Dr. Hukumchand ji …

[Abhay]

Bhaiya, I have seen 8 lectures of Hukumchand Bharill on You Tube for Kram baddhya paryay. I agree that Arihant kevali has seen all our future, but Arihant kevali can just seen (predicted) and not fixed it. Kevalgyan sees future and not fixes it. Kevalgyan is mere reflection of future. If kevali has seen that Dwarka will burn, then it has to burn for sure. If kevali has seen that I will get moksh in 1000 th birth from now and at any particular time, so that has to happen. But, some people infer that events will happen because kevali has seen them but the truth is that kevali only saw what will actually happen.

Example - Since kevali has seen all our future. He would have seen how many births I will take to get moksh. Now, if I assume it to be ‘n’ births that kevali has seen to get salvation and I stop purusharth thinking that when time will come, purusharth will happen anyhow. Then Kevali has actually seen ‘n’ to be infinite births.

But, if we do purusharth, 'n ’ will reduce and that only kevali has seen. So, what I mean to say is that Kevali bhagwan predicts future correctly but he merely predicts.
Whatever, future he has told in books will happen for sure. But, if we assume that my paryay are fixed and will happen as it is, then our sansaar भ्रमण will increase. And that was actually seen by kevali but our actions are only responsible for that.

[Sulabh]

Your questions have been answered in those books in a very neat manner. No better option than reading those. We can surely discuss thereafter.

My personal note:

• Always keep syadvaad by your side as a rescuing force, be in understanding any topic or even in your life situations
• Knowing future is a better word to use instead of using prediction of future, as each and every acharyas had used the same with respect to kevalgyan. It’s nice to stick to the language of Acharyas.
• While reading the books, also look for the concept of purusharth as per Jainism.

[Abhay]

Ok. Thanks. My point is only that if kevali has seen that I will take ‘n’ births to get moksh, then ‘n’ is a variable for us. We actually do not know value of variable ‘n’. This ‘n’ is constant number for kevali and a variable for us. The value of ‘n’ seen by kevali is because of our actual future purusharth. If we assume
that if ‘n’ is fixed, it will happen only for sure and we stop actual purusharth, then it will ruin us. Then value of ‘n’ seen by Kevalis earlier was actually infinite. We are only responsible for that.

[Sulabh]

@Abhay

kram baddhya paryay assumes ‘n’ is not determined by our purusharth

• It is not so assumed. And you yourself will see that in your reading of the same.

We very well know the nature of defaming of anything or anyone, it works with presuppositions, assumptions and what not, without looking for their validation.

I think we should stop here until reading of the source books… very much welcome after that…

[Vishal_Doshi]

नही। प्रथम गुणस्थान वर्ती द्रव्यलिंगी मुनि पूज्य नही। अंतरंग में मुनि योग्य भावलिंग होने पर ही बाह्य में पूजयत्व का व्यवहार आता है।

[Kishan_Shah]

जीव कोनसे गुणस्थान में है यह छद्मस्त नही पहचान सकते।
ये मात्र केवली ही जानते है।
8 साल का बच्चा सम्यकदृष्टि हो सकता है और बडेसे बडा विद्वान जिनको समयसार आदि ग्रंथ कंठस्थ हो वे अभव्य या मिथ्यादृष्टि भी हो सकते है।

कोन मिथ्यादृष्टि है कोनसा जीव कोनसे गुणसथान में है यह केवली के अलावा कोई भी नहीं जान सकता। गुणस्थान के लक्षण बाहर से दिखाई नही देते।

अतः 28 मूलगुणों का अखंड रूपसे पालन करने वाले सभी मुनिराज पूजनीय है।

[Akshay_Jain1]

कानजी स्वामी पंचम काल के भी दिगंबर मुनि महाराजों को मानते थे। आचार्य शांतिसागर जी की जीवनी चारित्र चक्रवर्ती में लेखक पंडित सुमेरू चंद्र दिवाकर ने कानजी स्वामी और आचार्य श्री की वार्तालाप बताई है।

कानजी स्वामी खुद महाराज को लेने के लिए दूर तक गए। मैं नीचे उस किताब से फोटो पेस्ट कर रहा हूं

[Chinmay]

यही तो महाराज के प्रश्न का उत्तर था | महाराज ने प्रश्न किया था कि "इस दिगंबर धर्म में तुमने क्या अच्छा देखा ? और तुम्हारे धर्म में क्या बुरा था ? उत्तर - जी शुद्धआत्मा खो गया था, तो उसे श्वेताम्बर आदि मतों में खोजा, पर वह इस दिगंबर धर्म में आकर प्राप्त हुआ, अब उस श्वेताम्बर आदि धर्मो को क्या देखना ? अब तो बस स्वरूप का रसपान करना है |

[Rushi]

@Kishan_Shah

अतः 28 मूलगुणों का अखंड रूपसे पालन करने वाले सभी मुनिराज पूजनीय है।

But if any maharaj/muni tells something which is contradictory to Jinwani Maa then it should not be followed or respected…for example…you will notice Dharnendra/Padmavati is worshipped by Jains…it is completely and utterly wrong. They are saragi dev, we only follow Vitraagi Jinendra Bhagwan.
Only ‘PanchParmesthi’, Jinwaani Maa are worth following.