Karma & Krambaddhparyay

#1

A person’s future births depend upon his deeds then how come Arihant Bhagwan know about his infinite future births? Isn’t it contradictory? The former part says that everything depends upon karmas whereas the latter part says it is predetermined.

I am a human being in bharat kshetra in this birth. If I do good deeds, I may be born born in 2nd heaven in the next birth.(Though I don’t have desire to born in heaven) and I maybe born as a human being in videh kshetra, in my 3rd bhav, because of my good deeds of this birth and good thinking of next birth(in heaven).
On the opposite, if I do bad deeds like saptya vyasna, I may be born in 3rd hell in the next bhav. and as a mosquito in 3rd bhav.

Now my question is, “At this particular moment of time, does Shrimandar Bhagwan sitting in Videh kshetra knows that whether I will be born in 2nd heaven or 3rd hell in my next birth? ”

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Followers of Swami ji
When did Mahavira soul did Teerthankar prakrati ka bandh?
#2
  • If the effect is determined, so also is the cause for that effect. (For more on this, see कारण कार्य रहस्य¹, क्रमबद्ध पर्याय² and an entry on कारण in Jainendra Siddhant Kosh).

  • So if it is determined for me to go to heaven or hell (effect) in the next birth, it is also determined that I would do respective deeds for either of them (cause). And thus, Simandhar Bhagwan at present knows both - cause as well as effect. Moreover, the occurrence of either of them is not dependent on someone knowing it beforehand.

  • In that case, what should I do? Is there anything that I have control of? Is everything determined? --> Since I don’t know what awaits for me in the future (at best I can only predict certain events), I must go for the best available option. Rest is destiny!

  • Had heard this in one of the pravachans of Shri Ravindra ji - बिना पुरुषार्थ के तो मोक्ष होगा ही नहीं, पुरुषार्थ करनेवाले को भी समय पर होगा ।


The books hyperlinked above are in Hindi. Translations are available in three other languages:
¹ कारण-कार्य रहस्य - English, Gujarati and Marathi.
² क्रमबद्ध पर्याय - English, Gujarati and Marathi.

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#3

Thank you for answering my question. We Jains believe in Anekantvada, maybe according to you that is the truth. But I have a different perspective as well.

I just got another answer on quora, i.e.

"Through Kevalgyan (omniscience) future was not decided but was only predicted by thirthankars.  
Prediction was based on his present karma's which could also be changed by the individual.Do read the story of Prashanchandra rajarshree for more clarification. Based on his following 
karma's Mahaveer swami made more than one prediction accordingly."

Even my rational mind thought like this. But I cannot take anything by my own thinking.

If you want to read the story, here is the link:
https://jainsite.com/jainism_post/shri-prasannachandra-rajarshi-story/

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#4

Thanks for sharing the story.

Two observations:

  • Lord Mahavir answered in such a manner because the question was asked in that way. The question was in the form of a possibility, and so is the answer. Words like ‘suppose’, ‘in case’, ‘in the event’ etc. indicate that King Shrenik was curious to know about the possible future events and not the future events as they were destined to be. It was a conditional statement having the form of ‘if…then’ which need not correspond to the facts.

  • Had the question been something like this - What will happen to Rajarshi after this birth ? The answer from Lord Mahavira would have been - ‘there won’t be any births after this, he would soon attain liberation’.


I agree with this much. It is about the latter part that I am not sure.

The future is decided and thus the omniscient being is able to know it as it is. That the omnsicient knows everything (and does not predict something to be the case) is a very common phenomenon for us (Tattvarth Sutra: 1/29)

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#5

I got your point. Thanks a lot for your efforts.

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#6

First I would like to thank you for giving your precious time to clarify my doubt.
Sorry to disturb you again, but I am still not satisfied with the answer.
May be my mind has not reached that state where I could understand this.

I would like to ask:

If everything is predestined, i.e.is fixed or written.

Q.1 Who wrote that?
Q.2. Wasn’t he biased that he sent somebody to hell and somebody to salvation?

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#7

Glad to continue with the discussion…!

  • It is determined by each and every event itself.
  • Jainism doesn’t subscribe to the view that God is the creator of this universe.
  • Two substances are independent of each other - each having its own existence (अस्तित्व गुण), ability to carry out successful activities (वस्तुत्व गुण) etc. For more on six common attributes (सामान्य गुण), see जैन तत्त्व परिचय¹ (hindi)

As there is none who governs the entire universe and each substance being self-sufficient to exist independently, I guess, this question gets automatically answered.


¹ Translations are also available in English, Marathi and Gujarati

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#8

@jinesh
Can you please give your views on what Muni Sudhasagar ji is saying on this topic?

I have inferred that he is saying that everything is not predetermined on its own but our Karma have determined that. It is like an alarm clock who rings everyday at suppose 4 am. Somebody will say it is predetermined that it will ring everyday at 4 am, but it is not so, our actions i.e. setting the alarm clock to ring at 4 am makes it do so.

The contradiction arises when we say the Arihant Bhagwaan know our anant future bhav, so for knowing our infinite birth, everything needs to predetermined.

But to understand this topic, we need to go into more detail.
Arihant bhagwaan knows the infinite future births of every being, but he only knows this of some time frame only. I am confused for the length of time frame as first he said that it is 1 koda kodi sagar, which have been fixed due to karmas of 70 koda kodi sagar. I am not sure but later even he said that 70 koda kodi is fixed, may be he said 70 koda kodi by mistake.

I may be wrong, but according to me, there will be anant bhav of every being in 1 koda kodi time frame. If is that so, it will solve the contradiction.

I am now confused whether arihant bhagwaan know our anant bhav or anantanant bhav, there is a difference between the two, though I don’t know the difference.

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केवलज्ञान संबंधी प्रश्न
#9

Isn’t the answer in the name “kewalgnan”? If this translates to “complete” or “perfect” knowledge, how can you call something knowledge Kewalgnan if it has limitation? It has always made sense to me that in complete knowledge, the infinite universe, and it’s infinite states (Past, present and future) should be “reflected” in that knowledge. It is not that “bhagwan” is stating the way things should/should not be, it is that he is stating the way they are in the “darpan” of his knowledge. If it were so that we had the opportunity to go against our destiny as observed in bhagwan’s complete knowledge, why then cannot a Tirthankar bring forward his salvation (for example). If he cannot change even one moment of his destiny for the present life, how then can he make any change towards any future lives. Surely such changes would have to be cumulative.

Just sharing my interpretations, in the hope it may trigger some new angles of interrogation.

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#10

I don’t know what is the actual truth. Actually my logical mind it not accepting how can everything be predetermined. If everything is predetermined, what is the significance of doing karmas. For example, if it is predetermined, why would I go to temple, why would I do pooja or tap?. If everything is predetermined, on what basis it is predetermined?

I am not sure but, keval gyan is a word of hindi language. As per my understanding keval means “only”. Or it may translate to supreme knowledge in english i.e. the best a being can get.

1 koda kodi sagar is a very big time. I think we may take infinite births in 1 koda kodi sagar time frame. I am also accepting that he knows the infinite states of all the particles. What I am not accepting is that, they knew all the state of all the particles.

I am not saying that.

even I agree to this point.

I am not saying we can go against his observation.

What do you mean by forwarding the salvation?

I am not disagreeing on this.

Also if Siddh Bhagwaan knows all the states of all the particles, after knowing that his knowledge is complete, then what they are doing now?
It is also said that they are knowing everytime. If they had known everything, then what is the need of knowing even after that? More details here: केवलज्ञान संबंधी प्रश्न

Even my theory goes with this, though I am not saying it is correct.

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#11
  • How is it possible that one event is pre-determined and the other is not? If it was pre-determined that the alarm would ring at 4 am, it was also pre-determined that someone would set it in that way.
  • And if it is pre-determined that the alarm will not ring at 4 am, it is also pre-determined that no one will set the alarm, or else the battery might get over at midnight, or the clock had started malfunctioning, and so on.
Yes, true. On a lighter note, he would be able to know infinite future भव only if that is in the store for us. However, I think, and you might agree, we would soon attain liberation… :slight_smile:
  • The knowledge of the omniscients is unconditional. There aren’t any spatio-temporal restrictions. @Niravg has already elaborated on this.
  • The time frame (स्थिति बन्ध) is different for each karma. 70 कोड़ाकोड़ी सागर is the maximum limit in the case of मोहनीय कर्म. For आयु कर्म, the maximum limit is 33 सागर. (तत्त्वार्थसूत्र, 8/15 and 8/17).
  • Moreover, one cannot bind the आयु कर्म for more than one birth. So even if there are infinite births, the karmic bondage for each of them will happen in the immediately preceding birth only.
  • But this need not contradict the knowledge of the omniscient as it is independent of the things which are being known.
  • The word karma has many senses. Literally, it means an act. However, in Jainism, it is used for the karmic particles which are a type of matter.
  • We cannot arbitrarily apply the principle of determinism. I am reminded of a few lines from मोक्षमार्गप्रकाशक (p. 94) -
वहाँ जो कार्य अपने मनोरथ के अनुसार होता है, उसे तो कहता है - ‘मैंने किया’; और अन्यथा हो तो कहता है - ‘मैं क्या करूँ ? ऐसा ही होना था’ अथवा ‘ऐसा क्यों हुआ’ - ऐसा मानता है | परन्तु या तो सर्व का कर्ता ही होना था या अकर्ता रहना था, सो विचार नहीं है |
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#12

Sorry Brother can’t say, only Kevalgyani knows that. What if I reach heaven in the next birth (though I am not wanting to go there) and gets involved in the sensual pleasure? and who knows I may even go to hell in the next birth.

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#13

Even I am not aware of my future. It was just a light remark that we would (more out of hope) soon attain liberation. By ‘soon’, what i meant was anything less than infinite…!

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#14

@jainsulabh @jinesh @Niravg Can anybody please explain what Kanji Swami Ji is trying to say regarding Krambaddh Paryay?

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#15

Two points that I can gather -

  • केवली भगवान् ने यदि अनंत भव देखे है तो उस जीव के अनंत भव होंगे ही होंगे, उसमें से एक भी कम नहीं होगा |
  • जिस जीव को अरहन्त के केवलज्ञान का निर्णय है, श्रद्धान है, उसके अनंत भव हो ही नहीं सकते | क्योंकि -
    • केवलज्ञान का निर्णय अर्थात् अरहन्त्त (देव) का निर्णय;
    • जिनवाणी (शास्त्र) का निर्णय भी उसी में आ गया क्योंकि उन्हीं की वाणी है; और
    • मुनिराज (गुरु) उसी पथ पर चलने वाले होने से उनका भी निर्णय हो गया
    • जिसे देव-शास्त्र-गुरु का निर्णय हो गया, तो फिर सम्यक्त्व हो गया, अब उसके अनंत भव कैसे हो सकते है ?

देव-शास्त्र-गुरु के श्रद्धान में सात तत्त्व का श्रद्धान गर्भित है, देखें मोक्षमार्गप्रकाशक, सम्यक्त्व के विभिन्न लक्षणों का समन्वय, pp. 323-330

Kindly let me know if there is any other point to discuss.
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#16

Thank you for letting me understand the meaning of that saying by Kanji Swami Ji. I don’t have anything more to discuss at this time.

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#17

I think this info would also be useful under this post:

Q) कोई भी काम हमारी किस्मत से होता है या हमारी मेहनत से ? (इस प्रश्न में किस्मत को क्रमबद्ध पर्याय समझ सकते है और मेहनत को हमारे कर्म)

हुकुमचंद भारिल्ल जी के प्रवचनों से -

किस्मत से (partial truth) , मेहनत से (partial truth)
Apply अनेकांतवाद,
काम होता है = किस्मत (निश्चयनय) + मेहनत (व्यवहारनय) [complete truth]

पर इसका क्या मतलब हुआ ?
निश्चयनय श्रद्धा करने के लिए है और व्यवहारनय आचरण के लिए । आपकी श्रद्धा होनी चाहिए की काम किस्मत से ही होता है (क्रमभद् पर्याय), परन्तु आपका आचरण ऐसा होना चाहिए की काम मेरी मेहनत से ही होता है । ये ही अनेकांतवाद है । सो ऐसा केवल जैन धर्म में ही है ।
जैसे मुनिराज श्रद्धा तो ऐसी करते है की सब जीव अपने आयु कर्म से ही जीते है कोई किसी को मार नहीं सकता कोई किसी को बचा नहीं सकता (निश्चयनय) , परन्तु आचरण ऐसा करते है की गलती से भी मुझसे एक चींटी भी न मरे और यदि मर जाये तो प्रायश्चित करते है (व्यवहारनय) ।

@Priyank_Chhajed अनेकांतवाद = (your believes should be like Nothing matter) + (your conduct should be like Everything matter)

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#19

Those who believe in Krambaddh paryay, why do they worship in temple ? Why do they go to temple ? Those Arihant became so by their destiny or good luck.
Only difference between them and us is Fate.

Do those people go to temple to do ‘namskar’ to destiny? What do they get by saluting God when their own destiny is also predetermined and will get salvation as already seen by omniscents ?

Is a player scoring 200 runs in fixed match worth appreciation ? NO ? Then why God whose luck was only factor for moksha ?

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#22

Pandit ji kram badhya paryay ka swadhyay kara rahe the ki सारा जगत film ki reel ki तरह hai. Sab kuch fixed hai. तभी ek shishya ka phone ring hua, phone par मालूम पड़ा ki ghar mein kisi ki मौत ho गई. Shishya जोर जोर से रोने लगा. Pandit ji ne use updesh dia ki sab kuch fix hai. Unki death Teerthankar bhagwan ke gyan mein jhalki hogi, tabhi to hui. Tum kyun रो - रोकर नवीन कर्म ka बंध कर रहे हो ? समता रखो. Ye karm bandh करोगे तो aage bhogna padega.

Tabhi shishya kehta hai ki pandit ji, mera rona bhi to Teerthankar bhagwan ke gyan mein jhalka hoga na. Aap kyun vyarth updesh dete ho ? Aur karm ka bandhna hoga tab bandhega, kaun rok sakta hai unko बंधने से भला. मैं भी समता तब रखूं जब भगवान ने ज्ञान में मेरा समता रखना दिखा हो। आप kram baddh paryay के इतने ज्ञानी होकर व्यर्थ उपदेश देते क्यूं हो ?

Pandit ji kehte hain ki हां pata nahi maine kaise bol dia, Mera bolna bhi Teerthankar bhagwan ke gyan में ही jhalka hoga, tabhi to mouth se nikal gaya.

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#23

But the propogators of Karm badhya parayay say that the routes are also fixed. निमित्त, etc. all 5 things are fixed and happen as it is. According to them, every milli second of our life is already fixed.

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