केवलज्ञान संबंधी प्रश्न

samaysar

#1

सिद्ध परमात्मा जब एक समय मे सबकुछ भूत भविष्य वर्तमान जान लेते है तो अगले समय मे क्या करते है?
बार बार क्या वे बोर नहीं होते?


#2

बहुत उत्तम प्रश्न है।

उत्तर : जी नही। Bore होने का प्रश्न ही नहीं उठता क्योंकि केवली भगवान को प्रतिसमय नया जानपना हो रहा है।

  • जैसे यदि हम इस वर्तमान समय को ‘5’ नंबर का समय माने। तो इस समय केवली भगवान 5 को वर्तमान रूप, 6, 7… को भविष्य रूप और 1,2,3, 4 को भूत रूप जान रहे हैं।

  • अगले समय ‘6’ (जो कि अब वर्तमान बन चुका है) को केवली भगवान वर्तमान रूप जान रहे हैं। लेकिन, अब 7,8… को भविष्य रूप और 1,2,3,4, और 5 को भी भूत रूप जान रहे है। क्योंकि पांचवा समय अब बीत चुका है। और छटवां समय आ चुका है।

इस प्रकार प्रवाह क्रम चलता जाता है और केवली भगवान प्रतिसमय नया नया जानपना करते जाते हैं। क्योंकि, जिस चीज़ को वो पहले वर्तमान रूप जान रहे थे अभी उसको भूतरूप जानेंगे और जिनको भविस्यरूप जान रहे थे उनको वर्तमान रूप।

उम्मीद है, ये आपको समझ आ गया होगा। आगामी चर्चा अपेक्षित है। :slight_smile:


#3

Yes, correct. प्रतिसमय नया नया जानपना करते हैं।

But as far I understand, OP is asking it in a generic way that - revising the same chapter, again and again, is boring instead of learning something new every day.

  • Boring is a state which happens due to मोह राग द्वेष.
  • Knowing everything at once eliminates मोह राग द्वेष.
  • No मोह राग द्वेष = Happiness.
  • Who gets bored being happy?

#4

बहुत सुंदर। दोनों पक्षों का खुलासा हो गया। :slight_smile:


#5

From psychological point of view, boring is the state of mind when it lags stimulation. Our brain is always planning subconsciously to survive and pass on the genes. And stimulation occurs when we do anything that can be helpful for our survival and for our offspring. Every activity you can think of can be explained somewhere with a desire of body to pass on the genes

All animals have the keen desire to survive and pass on the genes. Anything that perceive threat to our survival, our genes and hence brain wants to eliminate it.

Example Music

Mind anticipates what will come the next ( chorus ) and when it comes as we wished we feels a sense of achievement. But when we listen to song over and over again it becomes too obvious and brain feels almost nothing more to anticipate in it. And then the same songs makes us feel bored. (How music helps in passing gene is a different topic to dive into)

Books can be written on a single word "Boring" and how just avoid getting being bored. Haha

So what actually we we want? We don’t want to get bored? Right? How is it possible?

Well it is easy. It seems ridiculous to repeat anything again and again. But that’s the ultimate way. Yes do anything thing over and over again until your mind get tired to think about anything else. Then it feels a sense of accomplishment because your passions then died for finding new source of stimulation. Any you feel bliss and happy. So, actually its other way round the more you do something again and again forcing mind to put into, that boringness slowly disappears and a new state of mind forms that resonates in brain like blissfulness.

Stimulation to brain gives happiness because it helped in passing on the genes but then it is temporary. You feel afraid what to do next when this activity is over, and then you this keep on searching new activities to get stimulation from. And when you don’t get any source of stimulation, you get bored. And if you try to suppress the desire of genes to get stimulation then it becomes depression and you feel sad and more sad. Haha…

But what if the happiness you derive from external stimulation, if somehow could be derived from inner source, then it would be everlasting and won’t make us exhausted for external searches. Yes happiness is not something that you only get when a desire is fulfilled but also when you feel no desire is left. HAHA. So, meditation is the tool for achieving that. Or on the same argument doing anything over and over again ( no matter how stupid and meaningless it seems) is also mediation, when finally desires are diminished, and finished.

So, what Mahaveera did? For 12 years he sit alone and tried to eliminate this ever search of mind to search a new source of stimulation. He mediates, he found that whatever things were appear in the thoughts to be thought of pleasure were disappearing and then new desires were appearing and same cycle was repeating. But he didn’t acted on those desires of stimulation. He sat still and just watch those all desires from a corner. When slowly desire die, it gave a sense of feeling like blissfulness that you saved your energy that you could have spent to get that happiness from external source of stimulation. One day after 12 years, all desires stop coming, he rise above all those desires of getting stimulation from external means never to get bored. He attained Kevalgyana. He knows past i.e how his mind has lured him to search for stimulation, he could see future i.e. what mind will ask for stimulation in any particular scenario. And so he learned how to be in a present and that’s most blissful state. When Nothing Matters.

Sorry for grammatical errors and some things I could not explained clearly in context because of my damn fast speed of all these thoughts. Thank You…


Karma & Krambaddhparyay
#6

Very well written,

But मोह राग द्वेष eliminates before kevalgyan.
Sorry for pointing this, but I’m just thinking about the correct phrase, how does मोह राग द्वेष actually eliminates? without knowing everything.


#7

That’s why:

  • before केवलज्ञान, पूर्ण सुख।
  • after केवलज्ञान, अनंत सुख।

Referring आचार्य कुंदकुंद, प्रवचनसार गाथा (59) - 5 reasons supporting “प्रत्यक्षज्ञान ही पारमार्थिक सुखरूप हैं”

Check out 3rd reason in the image below - (३) समस्त वस्तुओंके ज्ञेयाकारोंको सर्वथा पी जानेसे परम विविधतामें व्याप्त होकर रहनेसे ‘अनन्त पदार्थोंमें विस्तृतहै,’ इसलिये सर्व पदार्थोंको जाननेकी इच्छाका अभाव है (और इसप्रकार किसी पदार्थको जाननेकी इच्छा न होनेसे आकुलता नहीं होती);

Direct link to the source: http://samyakdarshan.org/shastras/html/Pravachansar-Hindi/o/136.html


#8

Can we say, the real aim of being a Siddh is getting “Anant Sukh”. Siddhs don’t want to know everything about every particle. Though they know that as an extra because they are Siddh?


#9

I have a different doubt on this as well.
Lets take our own example. Today is 9th feb. Suppose tomorrow i.e.10 feb there is a pathshala class from 9am to 10 am. We came to know from an external source that there will be a pathshala class tomorrow from 9 am to 10 am. Suppose we are not attending the pathshala class. At 9:30 am,without any external source, we will be knowing that the pathshala class is going on. At 11 am, without any external source we will be knowing that the pathshala class has commenced. So, we are not knowing that afterwards, we are just deducing from previously accumulated knowledge.

I was talking about mere human beings like us. They are the Siddh Bhagwan, they know about every particle. Won’t they have the power to deduce. If they have that power, as per this, they won’t be getting new knowledge.

Its just my point of view, though I may be wrong.


#10

I think it’s not like what केवलज्ञानी want or not. It’s just the nature of a soul. We can’t make assumptions and estimations there. Also, अनंत सुख is complmentary to अनंत ज्ञान - दर्शन - वीर्य। Someone can’t be सुखी without knowing everything.

@shubham1993jain liked the way you thought that. I had also internally brainstormed how deductions don’t work with केवलज्ञान. Here’s what I think about it - only क्षोपशमिक ज्ञान makes deductions or illusions and it only happens in विकल्पात्मक ज्ञान so it’s a weakness of all of us, knowing everything (केवलज्ञान) eliminates making estimations and deductions as they know everything. It’s little hard to put but I think you got what I’m trying to illustrate :sweat_smile:

Do correct if anything not align with actual concept.


#11

What you are referring here as deducing, can be linked to Anumana pramana. On achieving kevalgyan there remains no need for any form of indirect or limited knowledge.
Also, in Jain nyaya even Anumana is considered to be a new knowledge.
In Pariksha mukh, sutra 1, defining pramana Acharya Manikyanandi says it is that knowledge which along with illuminating the self, knows something unprecedented and is also judgemental in nature.
स्वापूर्वार्थव्यवसायात्मकं ज्ञानं प्रमाणं

Very happy seeing your interest in such discussions, I’ll suggest you to read the Jain nyaya granths, specially the ones providing some detail on Jain pramana theory like Pariksha Mukh, Jain Nyay etc


#12

I know that Siddh bhagwon don’t deduce. I know they have the power to see the absolute truth. I just gave that example to describe my thought.

I think my doubt is still not clear to you both. I would request you both to please re-read my question.


#13

taking the above example of the pathshala only.
Once knowing that the pathshala will be there from 9 am to 10 am on the next day. They won’t need more knowledge about the pathshala. They would realize that pathshala is going at 9:30 am without knowing it, as they had already accumulated the knowledge that pathshala will be from 9 am to 10 am. Similary at 11 am they would realize that the pathshala has commenced without knowing it. I may be wrong, but according to me, if going by this they are not getting new knowledge.

I have a different theory for this, though I don’t know whether the theory is correct or not. But the theory answers my question.


#14

And what is that?


#15

You may not believe in the existence of Real Jain munis in the present time. I do respect you point of view. But I think there won’t be any harm if you can hear them. Even Balbhadra Ram sent Narayan Laxman to take knowledge from PratiNarayan Ravan.

So in this way, Siddh Bhagwan may be getting new knowledge every time.

You may not believe in the existence of Real Jain munis in the present time. I do respect you point of view. But I think there won’t be any harm if you can hear them. Even Balbhadra Ram sent Narayan Laxman to take knowledge from PratiNarayan Ravan.

Edits: Check the first para.


#16

Can you please share link of jain nyay granth?


#17

https://jainelibrary.org/book-detail/?srno=002089