See I only have a few things to convey after reading all your replies above on this topic and i.e.
There are plenty of things that Jainism has told us in theory but which are not practically verifiable due to lack of evidence and reduced human intellect.
Most of our theory is lost and we fight over the understanding of whatever is remaining which is merely a drop of the ocean.
I do understand that the world which we live in today seems geographically different that what our principles propound and quite a few facts don’t match with what’s visible to the naked eye.
For example : there’s nothing that verifies the Jain claim of people being taller in the past or the cities/society being hugely developed and all because if there were any so called ancient advanced cities then there would have been some remnants of the same as well.
There’s also plenty of experiences I’ve had and many many people all over the world observe each day which can only be categorized as a miracle or a divine action. Reincarnation case studies are aplenty so an afterlife is indeed true. Many people do have recollection of their past lives. Science still can’t answer why an idol self bathes on its own or why certain dreams have a definite result in people’s lives.
Do keep in mind that a knowledgeable person keeps his options open as he knows how little he knows.
Since you are a rational person then you also know that most religions today are merely over 2000 years old with the oldest being Sanatan dharma & Jain dharma. So the question of newer religions being more correct than the older ones doesn’t arise as the new ones say the same thing as provided in older religions with a little variation.
Now with all this I only come to the point that any religion whatsoever requires faith as a basic belief to start on with it. Jainism is nothing if you don’t have faith on it.
I’m sure that a lot of questions will be answered only after the death of the body. Till then don’t lose hope or faith just because things aren’t what they seem to be!
People make mistake between formation of universe to the creation of ultimate individual particles. Science with big bang theory does not postulate universe came into existence but it uses general theory of relativity and goes back to singularity where time T = 0. This singularity has a problem and contradicts with quantum mechanics and inflation. Hence it is more likely universe (ultimate particles which Jainism talks about) is eternal.
Do not confuse between planets, universe and particles. Planets universe are formations (skanda) ,…I am not interested in that. Jainism talks about parmanu which is subject of quantum mechanics. Hence I can say confidently that parmanus are not created. Hence Jainism is correct.
Formation has nothing to do with eternity of particles…focus on individual particles then it makes sense… think quantum mechanics which goes into sub atomic level.
I can say this building is ‘created’ hence building is not eternal… but building is made from trillions of small individual particles which are eternal. Hence in this context I can say building is eternal. It does not matter if building is destroyed and used to make a bridge … individual particles remain the same… you are focusing on paryaya…not the dravya … I am interested in dravya … if you have evidence of creation of particles … I mean parmanus… you may say hydrogen becomes helium under massive pressure and heat…then according to Jainism hydrogen is a skanda and not the parmanu …because dravya do not change
I have not seen any god argument that is satisfactory and not riddle with logical fallacy. If you can show logically how god created the world then I am happy to accept it. People have used 1) kalam cosmological argument 2) watchmaker (intelligent design) argument 3) fine tuning argument … all of them are debunked in detail…
Truth is not exclusive. If others acknowledge it then there is no contradiction.
that is correct and I agree. Otherwise it will be non sequitur logical fallacy.
Jainism has to stand on its own grounds, logic, rationale and evidence. So far, Jainism stands acceptable. For me to leave Jainism, it must be conclusively proved that universe is not eternal.
Jainism has a non-dogmatic and scientific approach to theology which is very attractive.
I understand dogmatic something like ‘if you don’t worship me then I will burn you in hell for eternity’.
Jainism presents moksha, karma are concepts, provides it’s attributes, it’s working. It is very detailed and process oriented. Same like science books. Unless we say science books are dogmatic then yes.
For example if I say smoking contains harmful particles that accumulates in lungs and cause cancer, then it is non-dogmatic. Because I explained the inherent properties of action and substance. Another great thing of Jainism is it tries to present you the universe as seen in the knowledge of Kevali Bhagwan. They did not make rules, they just show us. Kevalis are those who have zero anger, hatred, greed, lust, moha, etc. In this purest form, they explain or present knowledge. They attain moksha in forest far away from humans. It is us humans who rush to them to explain and guide us. They do not come us. Tirthankar Bhagwan don’t even speak. They want nothing they need nothing. Why will they lie? If Tirthankar Bhagwan had agenda and ego then they would have said say my name and bow down to me and and this act will get you moksha. But that is not Jainism. So it becomes more plausible to believe in them or take them seariously enough to examine what have said and follow it if you understand and agree. Jainism does not need mindless zombie who will believe because they are told so. Jainism does not commit argument from authority fallacy. That is what is so great about Jainism.
fasting unto death is much misrepresented and misunderstood. When death is inevitable, it is a process of getting through death is best possible way. It is like samadhi. Everyone wants to die in peace and not kicking crying and resenting and being fearful of death. It is not necessary to fast unto.
“had to come” is a misunderstanding of krambadhaparyaya. Once you see 5 samvay and understand how they form a delicate balance and it makes sense. Each component (5 samvay) has limited scope and limited impact. When all come together then event happen. No one component is overpowering or abusing other component. They work in sync together, this is the complexity of the universe and it’s multi-sidedness. For example, if I study everyday for a year and give exam, you cannot say I ‘had to’ have good results/outcome. Think like this when water lemon sugar salt time glass person comes together …lemonade is made…no one is forced, no one can overpower other, every element/component has a part to play. NO one is better than other. They form a beautiful balance(each performing its duty/task) to produce lemonade …that is just natural progression… that is krambadhata…
grief is kind of kashay and soul becomes veetraagi by detaching itself from them where anant darshan anant gyan anant charitra have come to fruition. When mithyatva ends why soul will suffer grief?? That is the whole point of Jainism.
Lets say on a hot sunny day, you see a tree and go stand under it to avoid scorching sun. Tree through act of shade showed daya/mercy on you… hence daya/mercy is subjective and how it is perceived…daya of Veetraagi Bhagwan is when I look at them I get reminder of my own soul’s glory and true nature hence just my Veetraagi Bhagwan posture and sight of it is a huge mercy on me…they guide me…so mercy/daya is exhibited from Veetraagi Bhagwan. That is so great they have to do nothing yet our lives are getting better and guided… if that is not a form of mercy/daya then what is?
I am still not seeing any contradictions or fallacies here. It is true we have to take any concept with pinch of salt. Jainism still remains coherent and logical choice worth investing in it.
please again think on this.
विश्व में कोई असत नहीं हैं, चाहे द्रव्य हो, चाहे गुण होऔर चाहे पर्याय हो।असतपना सापेक्ष हैं। इसलिए, भूत व भविष्य की पर्याय भी सत हैं। वो दोनों योग्यता रूप से द्रव्य में रहती है। इसी कारण केवलज्ञान में जानी जाती हैं। यदि भूत व भविष्य केवलज्ञान का विषय नहीं हो तो कोई भी (मोक्ष के ) पुरुषार्थ का फल अनंत काल रहेगा, यह कहना कैसे संभव हैं। अभव्य और भव्य में अंतर भी कैसे होगा। जीव का स्वभाव ज्ञान हैं और अजीव का स्वभाव जड़ हैं, यह कहना भी कैसे संभव हैं। णमोकार मंत्र अनादिनिधन हैं, यह कहना भी कैसे संभव हैं। कोई जीव सिद्ध होकर फिर संसारी नहीं होता, यह कहना भी कैसे संभव हैं। भूत व भविष्य के नहीं जानने पर कोई भी व्यवस्था सही नहीं हो सकती हैं। भूत व भविष्य के नहीं जानने पर किसी भी का कथन सत्य नहीं होगा, क्योकि सत्य तीनो काल में सत्य होना चाहिए। सत्य क्षेत्र व काल के आधार पर बदलता नहीं हैं । पर यह सब तीन लोक व तीन काल के जाने बिना कैसे कही जा सकती हैं अर्थात नहीं कही जा सकती हैं।
इसलिए “सर्व द्रव्य पर्यायेषु केवलस्य” कहा हैं ।
